EGM to amend the constitution (Mon 27 Feb)

[eoinor]

in the event of an accident, as is my understanding of it, drivers who have negotiated payment of petrol money with their passengers are technically charging the passengers for transport and there's complications there... they're operating as an unlicensed taxi or they're liable for their passengers' safety or something.

As long as you don't make a profit i.e. total money received does not add up to more than the cost of petrol, ware and tare etc its ok.

[Mr C]

i agree with donnie that that paragraph re. code of good practice is too restrictive, club trips are run in accordance with the code, thats the whole pt. of having it, don't think there should be procedure's like that set in stone, they're more things that committee's decide

Meabh, I'm not sure you understood my point. I am saying that it should be written into the constitution that:
1. The Code of Practice be adopted for all club trips
2. The CoP can only be changed by a suitable committee of people.

This kind of thing should not be in the constitution as it is inflexible and could lead to issues of liability in the event of an accident.

Thanks for your more knowedgeable reply Donnie. I don't see how my suggestion renders people more liable than they currently stand - can you explain this? Is it the committee that draughts it that are more liable? If so, then the author of the CoP is liable as it stands? Regarding the "inflexibility" - the CoP can be changed outside an EGM, but surely it should only be changed by appropriate people - I'm suggesting that the constitution defines these types of people. If it's not a viable change then that's cool (obviously), I just want to understand more about it.

I know these are poxy issues and maybe need to be sorted out by those who know the law, insurance and the ICU, away from a public forum. I don't think we should avoid it just because it is poxy though. It does need to be sorted.

Claire/Maria/Asho/Kmck -
You guys have obviously hit on something that needs to be sorted. Maybe it needs a post of its own so that the issues of constution and trip payments are not mixed up in people's minds. As the proposal stands, the constitution is quite clear on payments: the committee decide!

[Mr C]

Keep the advice coming, it can be quite difficult to see the flaws when your working on something so the outside input really helps!

Totally understand - I've been there a bunch of times. I hope you don't mind the discussion etc, it really is meant in a constructive way. As I said it obviously took a lot of work to get it where it is - well done! See, the problem you guys face is that you have so many people who are mad keen on the club!!

[TomB]

the issue of petrol money is not something for the constituition . . . . its a ruling thats available for change at the discretion of the committee from year to year. clarification will soon follow . . . . . .

would people be aware that that this proposed change is a massive improvement an the old, and that the overall change is a very positive one. people can get carried away and keep the thread very negative sounding!

 . . . . . people may feel that improvements are required, which can be agreed or disagreed with and the issues will be debated, this is whats going to happen at the egm. in order to facitilate good debate on the night people can put up there views on this thread to help all sides see there agruements.

also could people post what phrasing etc should be included instead of the 'there-should-be-this-approach', so for example colin could post what he believes should be the phasing of point 4.10 instead of just explaining his views.

[Mr C]

also could people post what phrasing etc should be included instead of the 'there-should-be-this-approach', so for example colin could post what he believes should be the phasing of point 4.10 instead of just explaining his views.

You mean do your work for you?     Anyway, I thought I did alright!! :-

- Section 4.10: I think that this section needs to be changed and expanded. It should state that all club canoeing events are required to be run in accordance with the Code of Practice. This then requires adoption of the Code of Practice for future years. Further, changes to the Code of Practice should be made by a nominated committee of (say) 5 people of at least 1 Level 4 and 2 Level 3 instructors; the remaining members are at the descretion of the committee. Something along those lines anyway.

Until the principle is agreed there's not much point spending ages on the wording.

About the EGM - I agree that it is the evening for debate, but voting on it straight afterwards may not be easy until people have the final proposal before them. How is that going to work in the course of one (no doubt drunken) evening? Is it a thing that the debate could be held here and then a revised proposed constitution tabled at the EGM?? Is there enough time??

people can get carried away and keep the thread very negative sounding!

Get the hell outta here!! Myself at least has tried to make it very clear that this is not negative, but constructive, and that there is nothing but thanks for the tough job you are doing on behalf of the whole club!

I hope you don't mind the discussion etc, it really is meant in a constructive way. As I said it obviously took a lot of work to get it where it is - well done!

[Diarmaid]

some of these might be a wee bit pedantic, I hope not, but anyways, these are my recommendations (warning: long post):

1. Change the 'Valid From' date on the cover page (I'm sure someone will, but just in case it slips through the cracks)

2. Use subsection numbers or letters or roman numerals, not just bullet points - it's a small matter but it's easier for reference (as in Article 3, 5.1, 5.3, etc).

3. There's a full stop missing after the second sentence of 4.1.

4. The old wording of 'The captaincy can only ever be held once...' (4.1) was better than the new wording of 'Any member can hold the captaincy once...'. The new wording contradicts the rest of 4.1, since not ANY member can hold the captaincy - only non ex-captains, those with previous committee experience, etc.

5. In 4.2 (Office of Secretary), the meetings are either 'regular' or 'on the request of any committee member', but specially requested meetings are, by definition, not regular.

6. Missing full stop at the end of 4.2 (I'll stop proofreading now, but maybe someone should give it a once-over before the EGM)

7. Could somebody elaborate what exactly the role of Child Officer is? I'm just curious...

8. Just wanted to confirm the intended use of 'biannual' in 4.9: Biannual means twice a year. Biennial means every two years. Is it to be every 6 months or every two years? (I remember huge confusion on these words from my Model UN days... ah, so much fun)

9. Is attendance at committee meetings compulsory or optional for the senior treasurer? This is a bit unclear.

10. (6.4) What does 'for another position' mean? Does it mean, for example, that a member on the floor can nominate a Treasury nominee for Safety & Training instead?

[Fuzzy]

10. (6.4) What does 'for another position' mean? Does it mean, for example, that a member on the floor can nominate a Treasury nominee for Safety & Training instead?

Nominations close three days before the agm. However on the night of the agm a person who was nominated for treasurer but not elected to be treasurer could then be nominated for one of the other positions when voting for that position takes place.

9. Is attendance at committee meetings compulsory or optional for the senior treasurer? This is a bit unclear.

Attendance at committee meetings is not compulsory for the senior treasurer. The text was changed from 'may attend' so that the senior treasurer would feel that they are meant to be at meetings even though they have no vote. i think it's meant to read 'should' rather than 'shall'

8. Just wanted to confirm the intended use of 'biannual' in 4.9: Biannual means twice a year. Biennial means every two years. Is it to be every 6 months or every two years? (I remember huge confusion on these words from my Model UN days... ah, so much fun)

This means twice a year

7. Could somebody elaborate what exactly the role of Child Officer is? I'm just curious...

The AUC says we have to have a childrens officer but aren't very clear about what this role involves so i think we can be forgiven for being suitably vague.

[meabh]

also point 5 re. secretary.....secretary both organises regular committee meetings ie. once every two weeks....whatever is decided upon at the start of the year and special request meetings where a member of the committee may feel the need for a meeting re. some specific topic.

[claire]

just on my point, i did say I  didn't think it was an issue for the constitution (so i probably shouldn't have posted it here!)
Glad to see clarification is coming Tom!
Since everyone seems to be hitting the road in their own cars and buying spanking new gear these days there should be a firm policy of what you owe in all situations!
(God I have turned into such a boring auditor...  seriously   )

[Liz]

I know these are poxy issues and maybe need to be sorted out by those who know the law, insurance and the ICU

Eh, Colin, I do believe the lawyerly types you mention above have already pointed out that making the code a stipulation would be too inflexible. I for one would never agree to be a Trip Leader if the responsibilities set down in the code were legally binding. Also, the fact that

All paddlers shall be graded by ICU standards.

means you would be very inflexible in involving those experienced paddlers who have never done a cert but who are highly valuable on a river...

As Miss Elizabeth Swan says:

They"re more like guidelines anyway!

[Mr C]

Eh, Liz, any club trip is already run to the CoP which requires trip leaders to be currently registered and appropriately qualified for the grade of water on which the trip is to be run. Any such intructor is covered by ICU insurance.

I for one would never agree to be a Trip Leader if the responsibilities set down in the code were legally binding

I, for one, wouldn't want to be led down a river by someone not willing to take on the responsibility of safety.

experienced paddlers who have never done a cert

As it currently stands, such paddlers are considered rescue and not trip leaders on club trips. Yes, simply because they don't have a cert, which means they are not insured. This in no way takes away from the value of such paddlers, and often when not on club trips, it is paddlers such as these that take the lead.

Do we have confusion over what is a club trip here? Easily solved: a club trip is one that uses club gear and is run in accordance with the CoP. Anything else is a private trip amongst friends. Hence club trips tend to be Liffey/Boyne affairs (anf the occasional Jackson's trip) whilst private trips are Dargle-y good!

[Greg]

As far as I am aware qualified and currently registered instructors are only insured by the ICU for ICU courses.  In the past club trips have been notified to the ICU office and put on their list of courses, thus insurance has been extended.  I am not sure if this is still a current practice.

Greg

[TomB]

hey Guys,

made a few small changes to make it easier for monday, i hope i have clarified peoples views etc etc

click here for new draft

http://www.ucd.ie/canoe/UCDCCConstitutionFinalDraft.pdf

[Mr C]

Before I've even opened it, it's funny to see that it's called the Final Draft. Are you trying to tell us something Tom?!!

4.9 COMMITTEE DISCLAIMER
Due to the hazardous nature of the sport, no club Officer shall be liable for any loss or injury incurred by any member or guest of the club during any club function or activity, provided that the activity is run in accordance with the Code of Practice.

Still not happy with this sentence. Why are you singling out committee members and how exactly is the disclaimer altered/improved by introducing the Code of Practice?

I'm glad to see that the voting issues have been clarified. I'd like to think that the decription of the job of Senior Treasurer deserves some paragraphs rather than just a PowerPoint-style bullet list - but maybe that's just personnal style so no bother. There are a couple of other grammar/style issues I pick out (eg mixture of double and single spaces after full-stops), but I think the meaning is clear in all cases. Maybe get someone independant to check it over? I could do it but Jim always love to help out  

Lastly: well done! Lots of work but it's worth it.

[TomB]

the committee is being singled out since the because the the section is on the committee. it intends on singling out the committee